This week’s 20 Questions is with Per Axbom… oddly enough from Sweden (Much like a certain Breki Tomasson). So Per is my second 20 Questions with someone from Sweden. That is surprising… I would not have guessed that I would find another Swede willing to answer my inane questions in so little time, but who doesn’t love Sweden?
I became aware of Per through his podcast, UX Podcast, that he hosts with James Royal-Lawson. It is a great podcast that covers many aspects of User Experience. Per and James will interview people within the UX community or chat about articles they have encountered concerning those different aspects of UXD. Since I am currently looking for a career jump into the UX field, this podcast is very germane to my professional endeavors.
I am incredibly interested in learning more about Per and sharing these 20 Questions with him. Now without further ado… onto the questions.
I started out my professional life as a cartographer, and one of the things I have always enjoyed is people’s personal geographic stories. For example, I was born outside of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The family moved to Montgomery, Alabama when I turned 3. A few years later we moved just to the northeast of Birmingham, Alabama where I lived until going off the college. I went to college 12 hours drive away from home at Kent State University in Northeast Ohio. There I met my wife and we settled in Columbus, Ohio smack dab in the center of Ohio. We have been in the Columbus area for the last 19 years. Question 1: What is your geographic story?
Ha, I wish I had a map to draw on right now. It’s true that I am from Sweden in the sense that I have Swedish parents and I live here now but my background is quite diverse. I was born in northern Liberia, in a town named Yekepa where the Liberian American-Swedish Mining Company (LAMCO) had operations. As a 5-year old we moved to Ludvika in Sweden and spent a couple of years there before moving to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia where I attended an American International school. After four years there it was back to Africa, living in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania attending grades 8-11 getting my GCSE at International School of Tanganyika. I have since lived in Sweden, completing the IB Programme at a boarding school north of Stockholm and then studying Communication Science at Jönköping University. I have moved numerous times throughout my life… my own calculations say I have moved 21 times in total, and most of that was before the age of 23. I’ve now lived a whopping 18 years in the same city, which is Solna in Stockholm county. I’m settled in here with my wife and two kids, who are all looking forward to a new, canine family member later this year.
We are in the process of acquiring two puppies ourselves. They have been born and will be a part of the family in early March.
That is one of the broadest geographic stories that I have had. I have seen that the people I have done this with who currently live in Europe have lived many places elsewhere. Most Americans have lived in America. Africa to Scandinavia to the Middle East to Africa and finally back to Sweden… That is quite a trip. Question 2: Are there aspects of you that reflect each of the different places you have lived? How have those varied cultures invested themselves in you?
That’s a really good question. I firmly believe that my background makes me better at my job. Having empathy and an understanding of different ways of looking at life is paramount to having an open mind, not jumping to conclusions, and being able to really listen to people’s stories in order to design products and services that assist rather than obstruct.
Working in many different teams I believe my experiences also allow me to mediate between different viewpoints and allow me to have the patience to always explain my thoughts and ideas from the beginning, never judging or looking down on anyone for not sharing the same knowledge or asking me to repeat myself. There are many benefits to knowing, and accepting, the people I work with as people first and professionals second.
On a more personal level my experience of these different cultures also guide me in more philosophical reflections on happiness and meaning. In many of the countries I have visited, at least nine in Africa alone and more than twenty worldwide, the tendency to greet people with a smile, singing in public, and high-spirited chatter on the bus is profoundly more abundant in financially inferior countries. The connectedness between people and the ability to let people close is much more prominent in environments where there is less to lose. More than anything, I see how much we can - and must - learn from these countries, when many in the west tend to proclaim how much we need to help and teach “them” to become like us. That can make me sad because that is far from what I would call integration.
I am also at point in life right now where I am discovering the healing powers of one-on-one talks, and moving into the coaching profession I’ve been blown away by how energized I can feel after engaging intensely with a person for ninety minutes. I now realize that this connectedness is exactly what many non-western cultures are trying to teach us.
Connectedness is something that the digital space says that it offers people, but the connectedness from online interactions is often a false one. I have met and befriended some great people on the internet, but that is sometimes a shallow imitation of face-to-face connections. We might need to chat more about this later but for now it is my prescribed third question.
Question 3: Cake or pie? Which specific kind and why?
Off the bat I want to say pecan pie. I only have good memories of pecan pie. If it’s on the menu I get it. I’m also just crazy about nuts - it’s my preference over any other snack. The question itself though brings out mixed emotions in me. Since last summer I only eat vegetarian food and I’m striving towards going vegan. The main difference between those preferences of course is exactly this: cake and pie. Whilst vegetarians easily eat these desserts as a vegan you would have to double-check the ingredients. It’s that extra level of detail that makes it harder in social environments. You seem overly picky and it’s one of those moments when you find people judging or questioning you. Now though it makes me want to go and find a recipe for vegan pecan pie. That actually has a nice ring to it!
I have recently (within the last 2 years, so not exactly recently) had to become gluten free. That has seriously caused me to read ingredients and labels more rigorously and caused me to turn away perfectly good desserts. Honestly it has been a bit painful. That being said, the house I grew up in had two pecan trees in the back yard. One can tire of pecans. I can shell pecans like a boss though.
I like the philosophy behind the vegan diet, but find the clarion call of meat too strong to go far down that path.
Let's touch back to the idea of connectedness. Question 4: Do you think there is a vehicle that can help for more authentic connectedness in the digital space even in digital environments that are more transactional? For example, there is a point of sale interaction that can be made with a sales associate in a retail store that can be a genuine connection between the associate and the customer that is extremely difficult to replicate in the digital space. Is there a way to have more interpersonal interaction in digital transactions?
Wow, I’d love to have a pecan tree! I can really feel for your dilemma of going gluten-free, and can attest to an experience of people with allergies having a more open mindset towards dietary deviances.
It actually blows my mind that you would ask this question about a retail store as just the other day I was revisiting a blog post I wrote fifteen years ago (!) about customer interaction in a retail store and the importance of trying to replicate this online. I called the post “Talk to me, web site”. (http://axbom.com/talk-web-site/). In essence I was calling for websites to create better connections with their customers.
But if I wrote this blog post today, I would instead title it: “Listen to me, website.”
Let me tell you what I know today. The past three years I’ve been working on a national online platform for cognitive behavioral therapy, as well as other types of treatment and patient instruction. For people who hear about this the gut reaction is to question how a proper patient-doctor relationship can be formed when all communication is online, they have not met and there is also no video or voice calling involved.
To be honest I was hearing reports about the success of these online treatments but I was a also a bit skeptical about how much trust could be built up under these circumstances. My role in digital projects is to perform regular interviews with all stakeholders, and I’m of course especially interested in the patients’ experience. Note that I’m not a medical professional and hence I’m not evaluating the effectiveness of the treatment, but I am looking at how people are using the service and how they are feeling before, during and after what is typically a 10-week period.
It has not been uncommon for patients to offer information about how well they connected with their doctor - before I even request it - using phrases like “he/she really understands me” and “I could really feel how much he/she cared about me”.
My conclusion from all of this is that connectedness is not reliant on face-to-face meetings or hearing someone’s voice, although different people will of course feel more or less comfortable with technology, which in turn will impact its effectiveness. I believe even someone who has corresponded via postal mail with a penpal across the world can attest to this.
No, connectedness is reliant on two things: good listening skills and a non-judgmental mindset. If the person you are talking to – however you are talking – makes the effort to understand you as a unique individual and does not make you feel uncomfortable about who you are, chances are you are willing to interact more with that person.
So I would argue that your question actually has the wrong premise from the outset. A genuine connection between an associate and a customer is NOT difficult to replicate in the digital space. The question is how much time someone is willing to spend to make that connection. To actually listen.
Yesterday I contacted KLM on Twitter to book a vegan meal for my transatlantic flight to Michigan. First, they responded within 10 minutes. Second, they apologized for this option not being available when I booked online. Third, they offered information about how this worked, making it easier for me to understand the best way to do this in future bookings. Fourth, they fixed it immediately for me. Fifth, they offered to tend to any further dietary requirements of my travel companions.
So KLM was not pointing me towards some self-service URL, form or phone number. They listened, they fixed it, and they did not judge my inability to have done this some other way. They gave me the impression they wanted to listen more. Does this make me want to keep flying KLM? Hell yeah.
Caring. It’s a thing humans seem to appreciate. The most common obstacle to caring is not a technology, it’s profit maximization. But in no way do I believe that caring is bad for profits.
That’s brilliant. I think the other piece that you are teasing around the edges in your examples above is that the online experience should not be rushed. I think too often customers, clients, users etc… are looking for the most expedient method to accomplish a task online. Expedience may be preferred when ordering pizza, but for other online transactions maybe a slower more conversational transaction may feel more genuine and authentic than some face-to-face interactions. Instead of trumpeting expedience and efficiency, some places should focus more on creating an online experience.
I belong to an artistic community online. Most of the people in that community I have never met in person. That being said, I would consider a handful of people from that community to be relatively close friends. Our friendship is due to open communication is a relatively non-judgmental space, but it is rooted in the fact that all of us love comic books and telling stories through sequential art. Question 5: do you have any niche online communities that you belong to? and what is the subject matter that brings that community together?
I think I’d enjoy that community. At one point in life I wanted to become the next Scott Adams. At the same time, communities are time-consuming and I find myself seeking comfort in ever-smaller groupings, actively enjoying people I know give me energy rather than steal it. I can really understand how commitment to a community, also ones online, makes you feel close to other people, especially within niche subjects. They are often arenas where you can be yourself and where you can use words and vocabulary that other people in your close environment perhaps don’t even understand.
Three years ago I started becoming involved in politics in my municipality. I live in a town of 50,000 people called Solna. It is surrounded geographically by Stockholm but still has its own city council. Long story short I was upset and wanted more insight into how the city is being run. Among other things I started an online group on Facebook which now has more than 1,000 members. In this forum anyone interested in local politics can participate and make their voice heard. The awesome part is that many of the active politicians on the council also hang out there, all seven different parties are represented. This creates an environment where anyone can start talking to local representatives in a heartbeat, but also in front of an interested audience. It’s a forum where there is a lot of emotion and commotion, as there usually is in politics, but three years in it is still very active and doing its job well. I believe it’s a unique composition of members, also aided by the reality of the town’s small population.
The interesting thing about this community is of course that people are not members because they believe the same things or strive towards a common goal. On the contrary, what brings the discussion forward are opposing views and the urge to find weaknesses in the other person’s logic and reasoning. It’s very much NOT a non-judgmental space. It’s all about judging and jumping to conclusions. Haha.
But I truly believe that this has created a more open environment between representatives of different parties as well, who air their views with each other a lot more than would otherwise be the case, and of course in front of a huge audience, which benefits everyone.
It’s not true of course though that forum members don’t have anything in common. The common trait is that of wanting change and development, and always better circumstances, even though there is disagreement on the best way to get there. So it’s also not entirely uncommon for people with opposing views to find agreement in issues here and there… small moments and glimpses of camaraderie that I believe would not be as common had there not be an online community for more chance encounters.
It’s a small pond in the larger workings of government, but it really does make me understand and appreciate ever more this quote by graphic novelist Marjane Satrapi:
If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same...
I love that the an online political community exists where things have not devolved into a chaotic maelstrom of public name-calling and combative argument. Even in the comic book forum to which I belong can devolve into nastiness from time to time, and we mostly agree on things. I cannot imagine how your local governmental group functions overall without a large number of people either trolling the group or the discussions becoming pedantic hate fests.
Previously, you said that you were “actively enjoying people I know give me energy rather than steal it.” So if you take the definition of an introvert as someone who recharges and recenters themselves when they are alone and an extrovert as someone who gains energy by interacting with others, Question 6: would you consider yourself more of an introvert or an extrovert?
I am definitely towards the far end of the introvert scale. This can surprise people since I do talks, lead workshops, participate in panels, and am an active podcaster. But the key is actually how you phrased it, which I agree is one of the best ways to help people understand the core difference between intro- and extroversion: how you restore energy. Growing up I was very shy and struggling with a sense of belonging. Socializing was difficult for me as I felt so much was fake and I couldn’t understand the rules. I still wince when people start talking about the weather but I do understand how important that ritual can be in relating to others and creating an air of assurance. Being shy, though, was mostly a result of feeling different, awkward and unattractive.
I say this to stress that being shy, a trait I am mostly rid of today, has little to do with being an introvert - which is one of the more common misconceptions and one I myself believed for a long time. I am glad there has been so much written about introversion over the past years as it has helped me understand myself better. I still need a lot of downtime and recovery periods after meeting a lot of people. Or, let’s not call it recovery… call it digestion. I need to process and reflect. But again, being an introvert does not mean I can not enjoy parties or social events - I am probably just a bit more picky and less inclined to take the initiative - something I do consider a weakness in myself. I have noted that I can more easily pinpoint people who give me energy rather than drain it, and I’d much rather spend time with a handful of people discussing interesting topics for short periods of time on a regular basis, than attend larger gatherings and talk about the weather with strangers. Sometimes strangers are awesome though and I can wish I would more readily approach more of them.
It’s quite awe-inspiring actually. Imagine all these introverted geeks in the 80s in their rooms attached to their computers for hours on end. All of a sudden internet explodes and these geeks can start talking to each other like never before. Introverts can talk to other introverts without any pressure, and with complete understanding when you need your quiet time. What a liberating experience to understand there were so many others like you.
I’ve actually been, on multiple occasions, to a huge geek camp unconference on a remote island in Sweden where hundreds of social media practitioners live in tents for three days. It becomes like an otherworldly experience because you can walk around in a community where everybody just gets you, and you don’t have to make any excuses for participating on your own terms, moving back and forth between downtime and giving a 30 minute talk under an oak tree. I guess it’s like a micro-version of Burning Man.
So how do I find time to recharge when I have a family with two kids and a dog on the way? Well, I ride a motorcycle - one of the best parts being completely in my own world, with no distractions.
There needs to be a stronger cultural distinction between being out-going and being an extrovert and being shy and being an introvert. For example, my wife absolutely needs time to herself to recharge, but she is a very outgoing host and facilitator for strategic organizational change. She talks to people all day long, but has to recharge at night on her own. I also know some people who need to be in a group of people to feed off their group energy even when they are not directly interacting with anyone within that group.
I have heard with motorcycles, it is not a matter of “if” you will crash, but one of “when” you will crash. Question 7: When was the last time you had to dump your bike?
Haha, what an unexpected question. I think it is three years ago now that I stopped outside our local grocery store and stepped off to go inside. The bike came crashing down on its left side as I, startled, jumped to the side. I had forgotten to put the kickstand down so gravity just took over. Boy did I feel stupid… thankfully I had an engine guard on that bike so no real damages done. The challenge then of course is to get a 300kg bike back on its wheels again. After a couple of failed attempts a man who was walking by saw me struggle and stopped to help me.
I’ve never dumped the bike in traffic but I’m no stranger to crashing. I competed in motocross as a young teen in Saudi Arabia. There was almost a crash of some sort every race, especially in the sand pits. It helped me realize that if you make sure to have the right protection gear then your body can handle the beating.
In traffic I always assume I’m invisible to others. This means I have to take into consideration all traffic around me and be ready to react to sudden lane changes and turns. I actually like how this keeps my mind occupied. The most common cause of accidents by far is a car that makes a sudden left turn without indicator lights just as a motorcycle is overtaking the car. In these cases I actually do not blame the car failing to indicate. It’s my responsibility as a motorcyclist to understand that this can happen, always be prepared for the eventuality and plan around it.
This is always an issue with motorcycles and other traffic. The visual profile of a motorcycle is so small that it is difficult to pick up. Motorcycles are very quick and agile as well, so I think many drivers do not have a strong mental model as to where to accurately predict a bike’s path. I would imagine the best drivers for a motorcyclist to be around are other motorcyclists that just happen to be in cars that day. I would not know since, last summer, at the tender age of 41 I finally learned how to ride a bicycle.
Question 8: Is there anything that is typically learned as a child that you would like to learn as an adult?
Cartwheels.
I think that should be an attainable goal. You should go for it.
I know that you are transitioning your career a bit from being a UX practitioner to being more of a personal coach. Question 9: How is that transition going and what do you enjoy most about coaching?
The challenge for me is that my brand is extremely tied to the world of UX and I am constantly receiving new work opportunities. I could probably just sit back and keep working with UX for many years to come. I personally want to evolve more though, which of course is why I attended a coaching programme to begin with. A driving force for me has always been helping people perform better. The glow in people’s eyes when they learn something new is like a drug for me. Coaching allows me to expand on that skill. As a consultant I can help people by doing work for them - or sharing knowledge, but as a coach I can also help people by advancing their growth as individuals and human beings.
What I really enjoy about coaching is making all these powerful and intimate connections with people I have never met before. I am amazed by how people open up when someone is sincerely listening to them and being present, and how the coaching process truly helps people overcome personal obstacles - large and small. A coaching session is often 90 minutes and one might think assume this would be exhausting but I am always energized by these encounters.
Already of course the coaching course has proven immensely valuable in my everyday work. For example, user interviews I perform now are of much higher quality than previously - I am able to go much further, dig deeper, into the real frustrations and problems people are experiencing. And that’s something I can admit to after having performed user interviews for almost 20 years prior with seemingly good results!
And most definitely everyday encounters in work meetings and with my family are positively affected by newly acquired skills as well.
What I feel I need to pursue now is finding the best possible overlap between UX and coaching, and repackage my offerings to something more unique. I know that people need and will benefit from what I am offering – communicating and helping people understand this is key to changing direction.
My first step, that I will hopefully start within a month, is offering 45-minute coaching walks at immensely discounted prices. These will be early morning walks or post-lunch strolls tackling a problem of the client’s choice. Showcasing this within current clients’ premises will bring new light to the value I bring and, I believe, in itself give birth to new project compositions. Just exploring new paths is exciting!
I love the excitement you have for making this jump. It is contagious. Like I stated earlier, I am currently looking for a User Experience/Content Strategy position, and it is not going as well as I hoped. It is difficult to make a career shift after spending many years working as a cartographer/geographic information systems specialist. Finding the correct employer who is willing to look at the transferable information synthesis skills is proving to be more difficult than expected. Maybe a chat with a coach would be helpful. I could use a few morning contemplative conversational walks. (EDITOR'S NOTE: I am now a UX practitioner for a large company and it is great)
